A Twitter conversation that took place on Saturday, June 20, 2009, between Bora Zivkovic, a scientist/pro-am-blogger, and Jason Pontin, the editor and publisher of the MIT Technology Review.
BoraZ:
@jason_pontin Quotes are inherently untrustworthy. Links are what is
used in this century. Allows reader to check, validate and get
informed
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Surely, one wants both? Links for validation and exploration. Quotes because they read better in stories.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin OK, when narrative is important as a hook for a link to explore deeper. But narrative not important for news junkies.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ BTW, no idea in WeMedia strikes me as more odd than the notion that quotes are a kind of powerplay by journos that robs sources.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin everyone who's ever been quoted feels that way - it is ALWAYS cherry-picked out of context and changes the intended meaning.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 1/4 Interview by journo. Give an oft-heard statement to set the stage. Spend 1hr arguing the statement it wrong.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 2/4 What does the journo quote from that 1hr? Only the original statement, with no indication you strongly disagree with it.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 3/4 which is 180 degrees away from the intended message of the quotee. Of course people deny interviews!
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 4/4 which is why a quote HAS to be linked to the entire audio or trascript of the interview. Web: no need to save on space.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 1/2 This is a strawman. Good journalists would never quote someone in that way. We must be accurate, provide context, and be fair.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 2/2 Indeed, at TR we practice an extraordinary discipline about quotes: we ask, "Would the subject think this fair?"
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Then good journalists must be very rare - this is rampant. Happens more often than not. And everyone knows it and grumbles.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin the usual practice of not letting the subject see the article in advance prevents the vetting of the quote.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin but even a correct quote by a well-meaning journo is an oversmiplification outside context - commenter shredding ensues!
BoraZ: @jason_pontin If I talk for 1hr to a journo it is because it takes 1hr to say it. No quote can give my argument justice.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin A quote is to the argument like a movie poster is to a movie - a teaser that cannot possibly convey the whole thing correctly
BoraZ: @jason_pontin and this is where Ethic of the Link comes in: not linking to whole transcript is like not letting 1 see a movie, just poster.
Chanders: @BoraZ @jason_pontin Walter Benjamin would disagree about quotes; in fact, he'd probably argue the opposite!
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Traditionally, if you let the subject see the quote again, he or she will usually rewrite it - always if the quote is devastating.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ You recognize, right, that we don't alway have a full transcript or audio? Indeed, usually we have hand-written notes.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ From *your* point of view as the subject - but not necessarily from the journalist's point of view, which is no less privileged.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin But it should not be more privileged, either. Yet, choosing what to quote is having power over the quotee. And it feels.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin You go with the transcript you have, not the transcript you'd like to have ;-)
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 1/2 But that's simply the power of writing - all writers have the power to represent reality according to their lights.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin on second thought...why in the 21st century you have hand-written notes?! Digital recorders go for $25
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 2/2 I think this is what WeMedia folks hate. We're saying things about you! With words! In publications! And you have no control.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Oh, you are so different from a pro! Recordings are time-consuming. They must be transcribed, and edited. We all prefer notes.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin which is exactly what is wrong with the Old Media - it has control over people, unwarranted, and enjoys thrill of the power.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin I will ALWAYS prefer a spreadheet to the most nicely crafted English sentence. Looking for info, not stories, not poetry. News
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I will quote as many as 20 people in a long feature, many for as long as 30 minutes to an hour. You see the problem?
BoraZ: @jason_pontin why not? I find it easy myself and I am technological Luddite. Today's gadgets are idiot-proof. You can't master those?
BoraZ: @jason_pontin No, Web is big and there is space to post all 20 entire interviews and link to each from your main article.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ It's not the recording, silly - it's the time-consuming transcription (by me or a 3rd party) and the editing of many transcripts.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ All, secondary to the business of writing a story.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Time-consuming? Sure, if you are a blogger with another job. But a pro is paid to do that. Otherwise it's just laziness.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Journalism is not writing stories, let writers do that. Journalism is delivering correct information, data, to the people.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I am not paid to be a stenographer - nor are my writers. We paid to report, analyze, understand, judge, and write clearly, memorably.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Ahhhh! Well, there we must part ways. Journalists are absolutely in the business of writing well. Or they should be.
chronsciguy: For those interested in what journalism is, @jason_pontin is giving @BoraZ a pretty nice crash course right now.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Yes, for the article that serves as the audience entry, via links, to ALL the information and data about the news story.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin There is a place for that - you have read my long post: http://tinyurl.com/djbb8w (expand) but that's not news. News is Data! Hard data
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Yes, for the article that serves as the audience entry, via links, to ALL the information and data about the news story.
BoraZ: Correcting @chronsciguy: For those interested in what journalism is, @BoraZ is giving @jason_pontin a pretty nice crash course right now.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I'm enjoying this! Let's continue later - must go deliver speech about Twitter to MIT entrepreneurs. Will you chat around 4.00 PM?
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Sure, this is fun. The whole idea what journalism even IS is changing these days, obviously. People want something diff now.
scootsmoon: @BoraZ Believe @jason_pontin on voice recorders vs. notes. Every journalist I know sees transcribing as central to their vision of hell.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 4pm EST? Sure. Twitter or a different venue? Wanna do a Bloggingheads.tv episode?
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Well, you can tell this to the MIT Entrepreneurs Forum at 4.00 PM EST, or shortly thereafter!
BoraZ: @jason_pontin tell exactly what, to exactly whom, via exactly what medium?
andrewottoson: Not a fan of Follow Friday, but I'm entertained by the ongoing @BoraZ / @jason_pontin exchange.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ You can tell the member of the MIT Entrepreneurs Forum what Twitter is for over the @ function - if you're willing. I'll write you.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin OK, e-mail me. I am coturnix on gmail. I can do this, I guess, on quick notice. How long - 10 minutes, more?
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I thought we would try this out on Twitter itself. The audience will be about 100 business guys - who want to understand social media
BoraZ: @jason_pontin OK, will do. Tell them to follow me (I cannot follow back yet, as I hit the Twitter limit). You Q, I A, they Q, we both A?
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Surely, one wants both? Links for validation and exploration. Quotes because they read better in stories.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin OK, when narrative is important as a hook for a link to explore deeper. But narrative not important for news junkies.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ BTW, no idea in WeMedia strikes me as more odd than the notion that quotes are a kind of powerplay by journos that robs sources.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin everyone who's ever been quoted feels that way - it is ALWAYS cherry-picked out of context and changes the intended meaning.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 1/4 Interview by journo. Give an oft-heard statement to set the stage. Spend 1hr arguing the statement it wrong.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 2/4 What does the journo quote from that 1hr? Only the original statement, with no indication you strongly disagree with it.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 3/4 which is 180 degrees away from the intended message of the quotee. Of course people deny interviews!
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 4/4 which is why a quote HAS to be linked to the entire audio or trascript of the interview. Web: no need to save on space.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 1/2 This is a strawman. Good journalists would never quote someone in that way. We must be accurate, provide context, and be fair.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 2/2 Indeed, at TR we practice an extraordinary discipline about quotes: we ask, "Would the subject think this fair?"
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Then good journalists must be very rare - this is rampant. Happens more often than not. And everyone knows it and grumbles.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin the usual practice of not letting the subject see the article in advance prevents the vetting of the quote.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin but even a correct quote by a well-meaning journo is an oversmiplification outside context - commenter shredding ensues!
BoraZ: @jason_pontin If I talk for 1hr to a journo it is because it takes 1hr to say it. No quote can give my argument justice.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin A quote is to the argument like a movie poster is to a movie - a teaser that cannot possibly convey the whole thing correctly
BoraZ: @jason_pontin and this is where Ethic of the Link comes in: not linking to whole transcript is like not letting 1 see a movie, just poster.
Chanders: @BoraZ @jason_pontin Walter Benjamin would disagree about quotes; in fact, he'd probably argue the opposite!
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Traditionally, if you let the subject see the quote again, he or she will usually rewrite it - always if the quote is devastating.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ You recognize, right, that we don't alway have a full transcript or audio? Indeed, usually we have hand-written notes.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ From *your* point of view as the subject - but not necessarily from the journalist's point of view, which is no less privileged.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin But it should not be more privileged, either. Yet, choosing what to quote is having power over the quotee. And it feels.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin You go with the transcript you have, not the transcript you'd like to have ;-)
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 1/2 But that's simply the power of writing - all writers have the power to represent reality according to their lights.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin on second thought...why in the 21st century you have hand-written notes?! Digital recorders go for $25
jason_pontin: @BoraZ 2/2 I think this is what WeMedia folks hate. We're saying things about you! With words! In publications! And you have no control.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Oh, you are so different from a pro! Recordings are time-consuming. They must be transcribed, and edited. We all prefer notes.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin which is exactly what is wrong with the Old Media - it has control over people, unwarranted, and enjoys thrill of the power.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin I will ALWAYS prefer a spreadheet to the most nicely crafted English sentence. Looking for info, not stories, not poetry. News
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I will quote as many as 20 people in a long feature, many for as long as 30 minutes to an hour. You see the problem?
BoraZ: @jason_pontin why not? I find it easy myself and I am technological Luddite. Today's gadgets are idiot-proof. You can't master those?
BoraZ: @jason_pontin No, Web is big and there is space to post all 20 entire interviews and link to each from your main article.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ It's not the recording, silly - it's the time-consuming transcription (by me or a 3rd party) and the editing of many transcripts.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ All, secondary to the business of writing a story.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Time-consuming? Sure, if you are a blogger with another job. But a pro is paid to do that. Otherwise it's just laziness.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Journalism is not writing stories, let writers do that. Journalism is delivering correct information, data, to the people.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I am not paid to be a stenographer - nor are my writers. We paid to report, analyze, understand, judge, and write clearly, memorably.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Ahhhh! Well, there we must part ways. Journalists are absolutely in the business of writing well. Or they should be.
chronsciguy: For those interested in what journalism is, @jason_pontin is giving @BoraZ a pretty nice crash course right now.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Yes, for the article that serves as the audience entry, via links, to ALL the information and data about the news story.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin There is a place for that - you have read my long post: http://tinyurl.com/djbb8w (expand) but that's not news. News is Data! Hard data
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Yes, for the article that serves as the audience entry, via links, to ALL the information and data about the news story.
BoraZ: Correcting @chronsciguy: For those interested in what journalism is, @BoraZ is giving @jason_pontin a pretty nice crash course right now.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I'm enjoying this! Let's continue later - must go deliver speech about Twitter to MIT entrepreneurs. Will you chat around 4.00 PM?
BoraZ: @jason_pontin Sure, this is fun. The whole idea what journalism even IS is changing these days, obviously. People want something diff now.
scootsmoon: @BoraZ Believe @jason_pontin on voice recorders vs. notes. Every journalist I know sees transcribing as central to their vision of hell.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin 4pm EST? Sure. Twitter or a different venue? Wanna do a Bloggingheads.tv episode?
jason_pontin: @BoraZ Well, you can tell this to the MIT Entrepreneurs Forum at 4.00 PM EST, or shortly thereafter!
BoraZ: @jason_pontin tell exactly what, to exactly whom, via exactly what medium?
andrewottoson: Not a fan of Follow Friday, but I'm entertained by the ongoing @BoraZ / @jason_pontin exchange.
jason_pontin: @BoraZ You can tell the member of the MIT Entrepreneurs Forum what Twitter is for over the @ function - if you're willing. I'll write you.
BoraZ: @jason_pontin OK, e-mail me. I am coturnix on gmail. I can do this, I guess, on quick notice. How long - 10 minutes, more?
jason_pontin: @BoraZ I thought we would try this out on Twitter itself. The audience will be about 100 business guys - who want to understand social media
BoraZ: @jason_pontin OK, will do. Tell them to follow me (I cannot follow back yet, as I hit the Twitter limit). You Q, I A, they Q, we both A?
...and here they go into logistics for their joint Twitter appearance... See #MITEO for results, but best transcript is here.
Comments